Curse

Rera · Nov 09, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

there is the detrimental reason, because they feel they need to.

No one is forcing anyone to hero-hench. I see plenty of LFG in mission towns, so if you wanted to PuG you should just join one of them. I *still* see people spamming "7/8 looking for monk to go!" for over thirty minutes, meaning these people clearly don't want to use heroes and are willing to wait for a real monk instead. Everyone on the forums predicted that "monks will be useless because of heroes lololol" ... wrong. So the people who don't want to hench *aren't* henching. That's a fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

You realise ofcourse that a CPU controled player be written with almost perfect game logic, and the bots would be better than any living gamer. A bot being better than a real player is not sad atall, what _is_ sad is people would rather play with a bot than a real flesh and blood player who you could experiance and enjoy the game with.

This is exactly contrary to your own earlier statement about CPU-controlled players not being better than humans:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

I also reject the fact heroes are better than real players, their AI sucks

So which is it, Nemon? Are heroes better than humans, or are they worse?

As I've said countless times, the only question anyone has to ask themselves in order to understand what is really going on is "Why don't (some) people like to PuG?". As a corollary, why do PuGs draw all the hate that they do, why are there so many threads bashing them and complaining about them?

Heroes are the solution to a problem. They represent additional options. They are not a problem in and of themselves.

LONGA · Nov 09, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I am a hench-quest/Pugs-missons type.
Having heroes seem to be benefit to me even when I am doing misson with pugs.Heroes sure give party a member to play a build that needed but hard to find role. Like warrior who use defensive shout , necro who keep party alive with curses.
So Pugs with heroes will likely to make PvE experince much better.

midnight caretaker · Nov 09, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

there should be a title for getting through all missions in pugs with out heros. I beat the game using all heros except against the litch king and shiro. Just the fact that getting a full pug with out heros would be a challenge in itself now with how good the heros are. Not saying hero grps or pugs are good or bad here play how you want but i would like to see a pug completion title that says "I BEAT THE GAME WITH ALL PUGS AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS STUPID TITLE" crap thats a little long oh well. Maybe jus the title "Mr. Pug"

Frostlight · Nov 10, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

Yes, lots want to and the few that dont feel compelled to level their henchies too.

This seems to contradict your earlier post saying that a large percentage of people feel compelled to level heroes. So are there many or are there only a few?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

The fact that this is a new game and players dont know how much or little henchies play in later missions is also going to contribute to them taking the safe route and leveling henchies. This is how i approached the problem of heroes myself, i assume other PuG players would think like me and level their hench.

If there really is a large number of people who want to PUG, then there should be plenty of advertising and PUGs forming, and no one would make this false assumption. Besides, you do see people going LFG on the starter island, so obviously they are not making the same assumption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

Anyone who tries to get a PuG in any of the early mission areas is going to be 100% convinced the only way they're ever going to be able to play is to hench it, and thus perpetuating the hero-hench cycle of single player loneliness.

I actually got into a party on noob island with a couple of lvl6 only to be kicked from the party so the lvl6 could add his hench. How can you not see a problem with that? I had to hench all 4 missions on noob island as a lvl20 monk, seriously. You're telling me a lvl6 wants to take his lvl6 whatever hero-hench more than a lvl20 monk because the lvl6 hench is better? or he is scared i'm some rage-quitter?

Did the lvl6 give the reason? There could be several:

1. He decided a hero/hench is better after all. Or he wanted to play at his own level without a lvl20 steamrolling over everything. Or he wanted to level his hero voluntarily. That's a matter of preference - don't see a problem here.

2. It was a mission and he realized he had to take the requisite hero in order to start. That's a separate PVE game design issue.

3. He kicked you, as you reasoned, because he's forced to level his heroes, because he couldn't find PUGs? That seems to mean either:

a) There just aren't that many people who want to PUG, or
b) There are lots of people who want to PUG, but they're silently ignoring other puggers who are yelling LFG/GLF, hence feeding into the "hero-hench cycle of loneliness"? If that's true, then it'd be entirely self-inflicted. But really, a) seems a much more likely and straightforward explanation than b).

How to explain why there are more PUGs later on in the game? Heroes and henches give consistent performance, while humans can potentially perform much better or worse (though more often the latter). The increased difficulty later on, especially for timed missions, causes some hench players to gamble on getting lucky with a good human team. This part hasn't changed from the old chapters. What did change was that there are now fewer missions in ch.3 that requires this gamble, due to the increased effectiveness of the heroes.

Outside of this thread, I (personally) haven't seen anyone asking or complaining about being forced to level heroes just in case they are critical for later missions. Whereas there are plenty of known hate for PUGs in the game and on the forums.

Cataclysm · Nov 10, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

I use heros for one reason: People are idiots. I have noticed that the average age of a Guild Warrior has gone up with the release of NF from 12 to upper teens, but the experiances I have had in the past are still too fresh.

I use NPCs in missions all the way untill the mainland when it becomes too hard, then I draw on my Friends, Guild, Alliance, and finally as a last resort a PuG.

Nemon · Nov 10, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Nothing i have said has been a contradiction. I have not stated any absolutes, and absolutes aren't that important when people can notice the difference in game themselves anway.

There are more gamers advertising for PuGs _later_ in the game because they have their henchies leveled, later levels are too hard to hench for some _and_ because they want to. Consider this, are you going to level your heroes on your next character? Yes you hench everything, but everyone at some point _has_ to hench; It's even required by the game, so leveling heroes is desirable, encouraged and _thus_ promotes anti-cooperative game play. It's like playing multiplayer chess online with a bot opponent, it's just a stupid concept all around. I know of no other multiplayer game that encourages people to play alone, infact quite the opposite.

Everyone seems to read that i am attacking heroes when it's not the heroes per se that are the problem, it is their tightly woven game requirement that have you rejecting real players to take hench because the game encourages it. Notice i did not say forced? You are perfectly free to try find a PuG in the deluge of henchers in early mission areas, but you'll just be screwed in later missions if you _have to_ hench because there is no one available to PuG with, and you need to take your lvl4 Koss on a lvl18 mission.

I've henched a ton of quests in factions, and altho it's not realy fun, it's not hard either. Heroes are a good upgrade to old hench but they don't intrinsically change anything. It is the games woven reliance on heroes that is the problem.

Currently heroes are much much worse than a real player, but there is no reason why they can't be trained/scripted to almost perfection. How great do you make hench before they're just a cheap way to blow through the game? There are already people reporting they've been AFK and come back to find their heroes taking out groups all on their own. That's the game playing the game for you. The only thing heroes have going for them (for those that need them) are they never disobey(outside their own technical limitations you can account for), they will take any skills you set them with and you never have to wait for a party. They are an important part of questing, but should only be in missions as a _last_ resort.

How about this for a compromise, heroes dont get XP from missions?

I dont see many people complaining about alot of things, doesn't mean they couldn't be improved.

Ruby Lightheart · Nov 10, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

well....as much as I would rather be with live players...most groups now adays dont really seem to want anything cept tanks, MM, monks and a nuker. I am a ranger and I do try to get with live players first but after a while you get tired of getting eithe rejected or ignored so I am forced to take heroes and henchies

Rera · Nov 10, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Adding one hero to an otherwise all-human party doesn't really qualify as 'henching'. Levelling heroes is easily done even without bringing them on missions.

I haven't yet entered a mission town in Elona where no one was LFG, so the notion of being forced to play alone because there's no one else to play with seems absurd to me.

I don't know what kind of PuGs you're getting, but Heroes are actually much better than the average player. The fact that they follow directions and take appropriate skills already makes them miles ahead of a typical PuG. And of course they also have lightning reflexes. Given the quality of the player pool in GW right now, it's no wonder that heroes are the first choice, rather than the last resort that you suggest.

Frostlight · Nov 10, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Even assuming you can't find PUGs in later missions, what will help you most to hench a hard mission is the humble little green flag, not the heroes. There's no hard requirement to level the heroes for anyone who doesn't want to. Just use the henches.

Now, I haven't finished Nightfall yet. Are there situations where it's possible to win with a hero-hench group, but impossible for a full-hench group? If so, I still can't see why you'd need to level more than 1 or 2 heroes for those special cases. (Titan quests are a special case - henches are not viable not because of any inherent flaw, but simply because of their low levels).

Silentt · Nov 10, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Heroes > Hencies > PUgs 80% of the time for me

Nemon · Nov 10, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Adding one hero or a couple of heros to a human party is just fine, _and_ your have to do that on several missions, which is why i leveled my hench.. I didn't know before hand which hench were going to be required for what missions, so i leveled them all like everyone else is doing.

The problem is people go into PuGs with this arrogant anti-PuG attitude and seem to take offence to everything. I have a great time in PuGs and most of my PuGs are a success. If not the first time then usually i keep the mood high enough that we stick together and succeed the second time. It's not science or difficult todo, it's how poor some other ppl are at building team spirit and motivation. If you sit in a corner being a sour faced critic of every PuG then im pretty sure all your PuGs are gonna suck.

I started NF from Tyria, and the first couple of missions in Elona i was unable to find a party. Perhaps if i had persisted for long enough i might have found one but it seemed everyone was pretty much ignoring me and taking hero-hench. A couple of missions on and it became much easier to get a group to my relief. After i had completed the game i went back to master all the missions; I mastered nearly every Elona mission with a real party and only the early Elona missions and _every_ noob island mission was i forced to PuG.

All im saying is leveling henchies is a bad idea. Would it harm the hero-henchers if their heroes level were based on their own? No, i dont think it would, so why not support what i am saying for the sake of the few or many who would like to see more people to PuG with? It's not like im talking about nerfing hench atall.

trialist · Nov 10, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

People who want to group with pugs will group with you regardless of whether they need to level heroes or not. The fact is, you can only take 3 heroes max per person and missions only require 1. If someone decides to fill up the rest of the party with henchies, its a clear indication that he wants to suffer none of the pug blues that are possible and whether or not heroes are required for missions is a moot point. I mean if they wanted to pug, wouldn't they just pick the required hero and fill the rest with pug members? The fact that they don't means they never had the intention of puging in the first place. Oh and making missions give no xp for heroes is about the dumbest thing i have heard. What is that going to achieve? Uber low leveled required heroes in a pug? Forced grinding in explorable areas for people who want to hero/hench or have better leveled heroes in pugs?

The only way you are going to have more people to pug with is if it is forced on them. Heroes/henchies have proven their worth to me since i beat NF entirely just hero/henching it. This included getting masters on almost all of the missions including the last 2 missions and a lot of them were on the first try. With such a high success rate, and without my guildies/friends around, why would i suddenly have a masochistic streak and go looking for a pug which might fail or pull some stunt that makes me pull out my hair?

-Old 3FL- · Nov 10, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

I hate pugs and always use hench.
When i get nf ill use Heroes.

0mar · Nov 10, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Heroes, with the right skill bar, are better than pugs, hands down. Pugs will always have people who are bad, don't know how to control agro and leave the second things look bad. I can't count how many times I ended up with a 5 or 6 man group by the end of THK and still won.

Heroes have a customizable skillbar, follow orders better than pugs and don't draw penises/swastikas on the radar. Tell me, why should I use pugs? So far, my friend and I have only had to repeat one mission, which was the one with the level 16 agro-magnet, and even that was fixed the 3rd time through. Other than that, we've beaten every single mission (expert/master's) on the first try. We've seen people, in local chat, complain that missions are tough/impossible and roll that very mission with our 6 heroes without breaking a sweat.

Shaq_gw · Nov 10, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Honestly, I don't know why folks didn't just stick to single player games instead of apparently successfully turning PvE into a mostly single player game. Why come to a multiplayer online game in order to play it essentially single player mode? Perhaps that kind of person would have been better off sticking to offline games like Oblivion, or playing offline Quake/UT with bots, Halflife 2, or NWN in single player offline mode and the like. Stick to using MSN/IRC if you need the chatrooms, do the online gaming world a service and stay away, with your bots

Finished ranting?

Everyone has their own reasons for getting into GW. Although i do enjoy playing with other people alot, i for one got addicted to GW for NOT being forced to.

It's painfull remembering the times in everquest end-game having to work 3 or more hours to assemble a raid group and them having to stay with them for 5 or more hours to do the raid.

I love the fact that i can jump into GW whenever i feel like it, even if i only have 30 minutes to play just before going to work.

The choice for single- or multiplayer in GW is not mutually exclusive. I can do a mission with a pug and then continue on a quest with my heroes. I can play however i want to play it.

Now for the people that want to group for everything i can only say .. find a nice guild/alliance of like-minded people.

It is true that PUG's are on the brink of death for the short term while everyone is checking out and leveling their heroes.

It may even remain dead as the number of horrible PUG players is extremely high.

Last night i got a good laugh out of it.

I was doing the blacktide den mission for characters on my second account. Because i only needed myself, 3 heroes and 2 henchmen to succeed 100% and 1 slot for the character to be run through i basicly had one slot left.

So i decided to invite someone calling for a group. He wanted to be absolutely sure that i was doing bonus too. I told him yes .. mission and bonus.

After killing the last rinkhal monitor he left. So i asked him if all he needed was just the bonus? He said yes, so i asked him to check the mission status on his map. He went silent when he noticed he had not received the bonus yet .. to get it you have to complete the mission.

By being he selfish he managed to NOT achieve his goal.

And if his secondary goal was to deny me completing the mission he failed that too.

I just laughed.

Ruby Lightheart · Nov 10, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Hey Shag...we had something like that happen during hte next to the last mission of Propheses. A group of us decided to give it a while even though we were only 3 rangers, a mesmer, and and ele. We invited a warrior whom supposedly was looking to do the mission and rest of team we filled with the henchie healers cause we couldnt find any live ones. Soon as we killed this one warrior boss (cant remember off hand whom it was) he laughed and left the group. We figured we would go on and see how far we could get without a tank..and we ended up finishing the mission successfully. As we got to the last mission we decided to stay together and look for another tank and there he was...the tank whom thought it was funny to abandon us looking for a group for mission and bonus. We passed him over and took a tank henchie and finished hte mission and bonus as well as the game. 10 mins later I went back to help a friend of mine's team get through the last mission..and there was that same warrior..stills spamming LFG. I couldnt help but laugh

Ruby Lightheart · Nov 10, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Hey Shag...we had something like that happen during hte next to the last mission of Propheses. A group of us decided to give it a while even though we were only 3 rangers, a mesmer, and and ele. We invited a warrior whom supposedly was looking to do the mission and rest of team we filled with the henchie healers cause we couldnt find any live ones. Soon as we killed this one warrior boss (cant remember off hand whom it was) he laughed and left the group. We figured we would go on and see how far we could get without a tank..and we ended up finishing the mission successfully. As we got to the last mission we decided to stay together and look for another tank and there he was...the tank whom thought it was funny to abandon us looking for a group for mission and bonus. We passed him over and took a tank henchie and finished hte mission and bonus as well as the game. 10 mins later I went back to help a friend of mine's team get through the last mission..and there was that same warrior..stills spamming LFG. I couldnt help but laugh

Loviatar · Nov 10, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

The problem is people go into PuGs with this arrogant anti-PuG attitude .

have you even stopped to consider the following facts that might explain why people (ESPECIALLY VETERANS) are grabbing heroes with open arms saying welcome its been a long time coming?

1. the anti PUG posts started soon after release of GW so NIGHTFALL HEROES have nothing to do with the i hate PUGS crowd.

2. people have consistantly expressed ever more frequently on forums how they want *anything but a PUG*

unlike you those anti PUG people have been burned so often that it is almost a hate reflex now.

this happened BEFORE Nightfall so Nightfall cannot be blamed for the anti pug hate.

that hate was put there by the groups we are NOW FREE OF AT LAST

Rera · Nov 10, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

The problem is people go into PuGs with this arrogant anti-PuG attitude

You're beginning to see the point - heroes aren't the problem. People just didn't want to PuG in the first place.

Sanji · Nov 10, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

I was doing the blacktide den mission for characters on my second account. Because i only needed myself, 3 heroes and 2 henchmen to succeed 100% and 1 slot for the character to be run through i basicly had one slot left.

So i decided to invite someone calling for a group. He wanted to be absolutely sure that i was doing bonus too. I told him yes .. mission and bonus.

After killing the last rinkhal monitor he left. So i asked him if all he needed was just the bonus? He said yes, so i asked him to check the mission status on his map. He went silent when he noticed he had not received the bonus yet .. to get it you have to complete the mission.

By being he selfish he managed to NOT achieve his goal.

And if his secondary goal was to deny me completing the mission he failed that too.

I just laughed.

Sounds like a real super genius. I got a laugh out it.